Young & Legendary: Alice Loxton reveals how historical figures lived at 18

Today, I'm thrilled to welcome one of my favorite historians, Alice Loxton, to the castle. We discuss her fascinating book 'Eighteen', which delves into the lives of historical figures when they were 18 years old. Alice shares her passion for medieval history and reveals how @history_alice came into being. We explore her unique approach to writing, imagining historical characters in modern settings to bring them to life. I was particularly intrigued by her diverse selection of characters, from Bede to Vivienne Westwood, and how she makes history accessible and engaging for everyone.

00:22 Exploring Historical Layers
01:04 The Book 'Eighteen' and Its Unique Approach
04:13 Diverse Historical Figures
09:49 Social Media and History
18:04 Writing and Research Process
25:37 Future Plans

You can hear more episodes of Lady Carnarvon's Official Podcasts at https://www.ladycarnarvon.com/podcast/

New episodes are published on the first day of every month.

Transcript

 Today I'm sitting in the castle in a beautiful room with a wonderful view with one of my favourite historians. Alice Loxton. And we're going to talk about everything that has got the number 18 in it.

Alice, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. I know you're also medievalist, aren't you? Which is one of the things that I simply adore. And this castle has so many layers of history that I think is one of the most exciting things.

 Absolutely. I know people must know about the history of perhaps later years, but it is extraordinary. And it's the case with so many big kind of beautiful houses like this, that there's all of these layers of history going, stretching back throughout the medieval period. And I'm sure people would be quite surprised.

 When you tell them about these layers of history going back for centuries. 

I love standing outside the castle,  greeting a group of visitors and saying, How old is the castle? Not me, but the castle. And waiting for them to guess, Oh, 1781 or whatever else.

And then my earliest written records are 749 A. D. I was thrilled when I read your book, Eighteen, which I have much enjoyed. A wonderful chapter on Bede. Yes! 

That's right.  In my book, Eighteen    I,  wanted to make people think about figures from history, not just as fictional characters from a story, but actually that these were real people who were alive and breathing.

And so often in the past when you think of Bede,  you think about the venerable Bede, you probably imagine him as this character, . Perhaps an older man with a big beard. Sitting in a scriptorium, but of course once upon a time. He was a young man He was a child and he had all the hopes and fears and insecurities That all of us have and I think going through this lens of looking at people when they're 18 years old It's a really good way to remind us that all these figures from history were once, the perhaps more insecure younger Kind of teenagers that, that all of us are at some points as well.

I thought it was absolutely fascinating and I was also fascinated about your choice of the 18 characters that you followed which, end up with Vivian Westwood for example, which is such fun. The other thing is , when one is writing, it's trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

To bring that imagination forward and then at the same time I think You're also trying to put yourself in the shoes of the reader. So you're trying to be in several places at once but worth telling a story. So , it's a very interesting lens that you've chosen for us. 

I hope so.

Thank you so much. One of the things that I do that is unusual and one of the difficult things, looking at someone like Bede or Chaucer, we don't have the daily diaries of them. We do in later years, and that's really helpful. Sometimes overwhelming in so much the amount of information that you have to deal with.

But the way that I try and really bring these figures to life is between each chapter I include A bit in italics where I imagine all the characters in a modern setting, quite a wacky thing to do, really. I suppose the dining room here at IKEA. Oh of course, yeah. That's what I had in mind, of course.

Yeah, a dining room where they're all sitting together and talking to one another. And then it makes you think about these figures in the room with us. Now, so what would it be like? You can think about Bede in this abstract way, and you can think about Chaucer, and Elizabeth I, and all these figures, but what would it actually be like if you sat next to them at a dinner party, and what would they say?

And what would they say to each other? And I find that really helpful as a device when you're thinking about this just writing, but I think for readers it's helpful as well. To bring these figures to life. 

I thought it was fantastic, because I didn't know. I bought it because I followed you on History Alex.

And, which is interesting now how one buys books. It makes it come to the front. Yes. Then I was thinking, you'd have chosen perhaps more predictable people. What I loved was it was unpredictable and therefore far more fun.  I happen to love characters like Matilda, Queen Matilda.

Extraordinary women, which I really did enjoy actually as well. But unusual people with unusual challenges in life as well. 

 The way that I made the selection, was To have a really diverse group of people and diverse in ways that you maybe wouldn't even think about so just Thinking about  a mixture of girls and boys But also a mixture of people who have had come from places of privilege come from very humble backgrounds,  sometimes people within positions of privilege have a very difficult upbringing.

For example, Elizabeth I, who we think she grew up in royalty and luxury. But actually, she had one of the most difficult upbringings in the sense that her mother was executed when she was a toddler. She had four stepmothers that kept recalibrating her position on the world stage. Her father died, and then she was in this terrible sex scandal with Thomas Seymour, all before the age of 18.

And if you think about Queen Elizabeth I sitting on a therapist's couch at the age of 18, that is a lot to unpack, a lot to, to deal with for any young person. But there's figures from around the country, so some figures from East Quantockshed, for example, this little village in Somerset. Some figures who've grown up on the other side of the world, perhaps it might be India, like S.

C. Ingalls, who grew up in India, then moved to Edinburgh. Or Jack Francis, who was a young man who came from somewhere on the West African coast and ended up in Southampton at the age of 18., I didn't want it to be a book where  you'd read it and you'd think, Oh no, all these people at the age of 18 have achieved so much.

I've missed the boat. Why haven't I done anything? Because actually there's a lot of figures in here who Some of them have been forced into positions of immense responsibility, like Empress Matilda, who was in charge of Italy by the time she was 18. But then some have absolutely no idea of the thrills or challenges to come, like Vivienne Westwood and like Vita Sackville West, who I would say at the age of 18 were quite confused about their identity, quite confused about where they were going with their life.

And actually, it's only later on that this is clarified. And they bloom in the ways that we know. So hopefully there's someone in this book that everyone can relate to a little bit. 

. I thought it was just so interesting. And I also, I'm going to just say next, I love books which aren't too sick.

Yeah, so do I. I find when I, some friends of mine who are very, eminent historians and they give me a book which is double the size of your wonderful book and I start with enthusiasm and then move to the middle and then think I wonder what it's ending back and it's just a little bit too much.

I don't know what it is today but even perhaps in the past you nevertheless want something which you can take on board and enjoy and read. There's another author who's come here, Tim Marshall, who's written The Politics of Geography, The Power of Geography, and again, He writes everything from 10s, rather than 18, but not when people were 10 years old.

But again, it's such a user friendly way of grasping some of the facts of where we came from. And if we don't know where we came from, what other people's lives were like, how can we make better judgments today. So where can we know where we're going? 

Of course. That's really you to say. I basically, I think there's a time and place for all books and all styles and every thickness of book, but I really just write the books that I would like to read myself.

And I like to read books that I can dip into easily. And it's very full of life and it's lively  I can see lots of books that are quite academic that are written, My first book was called Uproar and it was all about 18th century caricaturists like James Gilray and the books that are written about him are amazing but they might cost 50 pounds, they might be a coffee table, beautiful book, but you're not going to buy that book if you are a beginner really.

So  I always have a, the reader in my mind.  Often someone on holiday on a sunbed, having a nice time and wanting to read something entertaining. And that's the kind of book that I aim for. I'm going to look forward to your next book.

Yes. So when you chose your eighteen characters, how on earth, did you have lots of arguments with yourself or other people? Or publishing, or agents, or? 

Yeah, the publishers are pretty laissez faire about it all really.  It's really tricky because  I wanted to tell this story of Britain as well.

So I wanted to, touch on important moments in British history. For example, this figure's C. S. Lewis when he's 18. He's at Oxford and the First World War's happening. The Second World War, the story is told through Vivian Westwood because she was born during that period and her  first 10 years of her life are all rationing.

So it had to be chronologically spread out quite, as much as I could. That's why , it's really good that beads in it, to tell that story of  the Anglo Saxon world. Because so often historians would just miss that out because they think, oh, we haven't got enough sources.

But I really think that you can paint an amazing picture of people's worlds. , through other evidence that exists. A big spread of chronology.  But there were so many figures that almost were featured but, , they overlap with someone else that time, and I think it was very difficult to get a good balance.

 It's really interesting when you look at the course of women's history, when you look at medieval history, the only real records we have of young women are royal, 

and actually the story of royalty and of royal women is often quite similar. They probably grew up in somewhere like Castile and married an English prince. And that isn't a remarkable story, but it's in the long course of British history, that's a very unique the story of a minority.

And actually women's history,  maybe say 15, 16 hundreds onwards, you suddenly start to get all of these records of women doing amazing. Whether it be , in the world of medicine, or writing amazing books, or just being a lot more independent. There were a lot of women later on that I really wanted to include, but actually they overlapped in their time frame.

So that was a bit tricky, but I hope it's a good mix. I 

hope it is a good mix. So Alice, obviously I've found you on Instagram like I suspect many others. Yes. And you've made such a success of it and it's such fun. It normally starts with today. Which is why it starts with today.  That's now something that's really taken off and you have become the history hit to go to.

But how did you begin that? How did you start? Progressing that. What was your impetus? 

Yes, I used to work at this TV company called History Hits, which was working with the historian Dan Snow and lots of other historians like him. So we were making lots of documentaries and at that point, which was lockdown time it became evident that if you're making documentaries and videos on YouTube and podcasts, that the natural thing to also be making at that time is content on social media.

And I think I have always recognised that Though they are short, and only on your phone, these videos can be consumed in the same way that you might consume a documentary I have a background in editing documentaries and podcasts and things, so I basically just applied that to social media and yes, you're right, it's so exciting that you can make all this content, as you well know, with your own wonderful content here at HiClear, that you can reach all these people all around the world who share your passion.

And what's been wonderful for me is that I can go to some of these houses who perhaps, they don't have a massive team or a massive budget, and I can do a bit of PR for them by making some content there. And people do go and visit. Yeah, it's been a really wonderful experience and wonderful adventure And I hope, I'm sure there'll be lots more fun.

That's why I'm here today. So it's it's great fun. And I am very 

lucky really. Instagram is one way of staying in touch and being connected, so I think there's, I know there's negative sides to it as well, but I'm interested in the positive sides. So am I. The glass half full, which is one part of it.

So you started in lockdown with History Alice then? Yes, 

that's it, probably about three years ago, something like that now. Which is why it's so exciting because of course you can grow so quickly. Yes. And I love this, I mean I was talking to Someone who was trying to start out yesterday.

And I was saying that one of the amazing things about social media, as you're right to say that there are some negatives to it, but there are some amazing positives in that. Anybody can create content in whatever form they want, it can be any theme, it can be the most niche bit of history ever, or it can be just focused on one house, or it can be focused on one era, or one bit of local history, and you can make it in whatever kind of way you want, you can be the person that edits, that films, that presents, you can be the money behind it, you can be the commissioner.

And then, once you've made it, you can just put it out. And people all around the world can watch it. Whereas I do think that's much more fluid than perhaps the more traditional ways of making TV, where you've got to work with a commissioner, and then they've got to approve it with the advert, and they've got to approve it with this person, and it's, it might get cut, even though you've, made this amazing content.

For me, I find social media very freeing. And I find the content that you see on social media from other creators, really diverse and it's a very democratic thing because people from all backgrounds. Can do it, you don't have to have experience in media and I think it's very surprising what people come up with, which is great, really.

We've done some documentaries behind the scenes with various TV companies, which take weeks to film and hours each day to film and, then they're hopefully seen by five, six, seven hundred thousand people. But, if I put up a video about Poppy the Doll, that one was seen by three million people.

Yeah. It's interesting, I'm not taking away from that, and I'm still involved in magazines and books as well. I like all media, but in terms of the reach, if you suddenly hit it, it is completely astounding. It's amazing. So when you're filming with your social media, do you have a plan of where you're going, or themes, or topics?

Not really. I just Try and film as much as I can and there's so much amazing history here in Britain   You could just go around all the counties and you could just keep filming and there would just be endless content  I do have other things going on and I'm writing books I'm doing events or coming on podcasts like I am today And so I do get taken naturally to different areas of the country and whilst I'm there I'll often film but it's pretty sporadic, it's pretty random, it's just whatever takes my fancy.

But there's so much out there that I guess I'll never have, never run out of content. Did you 

study history at 

school or college or 

university or 

how far did you go with it? So I just did a history degree at Edinburgh University. Did you? Yes. And went to St Andrews? Of course yes. We were both up in Scotland together.

Yes, and I did visit St Andrews when I was there. And I visited Edinburgh. Wonderful. So I had a wonderful time there. I'd never really been to Edinburgh, but , it's such an incredible history up there. , just being in those amazing kind of medieval streets in the old town and then the beautiful new town there. , and as a student, of course, you're living in the heart of it. I was living next to Charlotte Square designed by Robert Adam, which is pretty extraordinary. As a place to live, as a student. I think Edinburgh students are very lucky. 

And which bit of history did you study?

Where were you focused on? 

I studied all sorts. I did architectural history. So my main degree was history, but I did do some architectural history. I did some history of art. And I went abroad, actually, for you could go on a year abroad. So I went to Georgetown in Washington which is amazing.

It's very different. Very interesting though. And it's fantastic background for what you're doing now. Architectural history and history of art and history. You couldn't have been more consistent. You're right. The thing is I. And I think this is going back to 18. You see this with some of the figures like Vivian Westwood.

 She didn't know where she was going, I don't think. But when you look back at her life, and you look back at her young life, all the key elements, all of her passions were so obviously there, they just needed to be directed. And I sometimes think that about myself, that I was always really interested in history.

I was really interested in making videos. I loved architectural history.  All the things that have made me successful now are the things that I've always loved.  I was lucky that I , found the way to express it. Yeah. And it's all come together.

And I think. Lots of my friends who are in their twenties  it's quite difficult to find , all your passions can come together in a job that actually makes sense and works and everything. And I think social media is good for that because , whatever your combination of interests are, they can express themselves on these platforms.

It's all about people, isn't it? Because you need people to relate to people. Yeah, definitely. Film a room without you in it, because it's your interpretation of it, so it's that personal touch which you managed to convey through the lens, which is brilliant.

Well, 

you're the same, I think.  Even though this could be a voiceover, and in some ways, all I'm doing is just saying, what is, could be a voiceover. Actually, people connect much more when they can see someone in the space.

Which is interesting. Or 

some dog. 

Or a dog! Actually, one of my best when I was doing promotions for my book, I had a, there was a photo of me reading to this little pony called Pumpkin, and actually that did incredibly well, and it made me realise that people, people just love animals on social media, so it's always worth bearing in mind for anyone that needs to, sell some products or anything.

I think it makes, again, makes you feel, makes you seem warm and kind and caring, which I'm actually sure you are, because it's the visual recognition of that too, isn't it? Yeah. It's okay to say what. What is one of your strongest memories from when you were 18, Vanessa? 

Oh, from when I was 18? I When I was 18, I went to Reading Festival.

That was a big moment, I think. But I also was doing a lot of exploring historic buildings. And I remember visiting the Wallace Collection in London.  I  hadn't grown up in London. And I remember going to London and just suddenly realising  the amount of kind of beautiful buildings there and museums and that you can actually go and visit Hampton Court Palace and you can go out to Windsor Castle and you can go and see all these amazing houses.

And I remember being at the Wallace Collection, which you can walk into for free, which is pretty incredible. And just walking around there and having a day there on my own.  In some ways  in hindsight, I was quite naive , to what is there in London. But it was just hugely exciting.

 If you can see yourself in 18 plus 18, we're only talking 18s by the way. Okay, yeah, perfect. Where do you think you'll be, having written more books in the future, or do you want to do a bit more TV work? Or what would you enjoy to do? 

I'm, I am writing books. I'm writing another book at the moment, which comes out at the end of this year.

It's all about a medieval queen, Eleanor of Castile. So I'm very excited about that,  as I have been trying to do with my other books is taking elements of history that. perhaps are a bit impenetrable and just really bring them to the fore and  create the hook that helps people get into it.

So that's what I'm doing with that book, and I think there's so many topics that I could write about, like I have an endless list of topics that I would love to write a book about, so I'm sure I'll just keep doing that. I'd love to do more TV work But it's we're in all sorts of conversations all the time, these things never quite happen until they actually happen.

So we'll see. I don't know. I'm so open to all sorts of things and I love the world of film and TV and drama. And so I've also been in conversations about writing some dramas or working on the kind of thing, Downton Abbey, that sort of thing.  I think there's some stat that it's like the way that people's view of the past is most effectively shaped is through TV and film.

And that's unsurprising, isn't it? Because it's this multi dimensional kind of creation of the past. So I think that can be amazingly powerful. But we'll see, I'm open to all options. I think what's interesting about social media is obviously it's wonderful and it's been Such a huge journey for me.

But of course it might disappear at any point, as we saw with the TikTok temporary ban. I know. So I'm always on my guard to , not put all your eggs in one basket. And that's why I do the books and do writing sometimes the newspapers or other bits and pieces. I know you're right, 

but we're the same.

Yeah. I think it is quite frightening. And at one point,  something went wrong with Instagram. Yeah. And you just think, oh my goodness, you've put all these hours in. And it's, equally the platform has, does what the platform wants. Yes. Having said that, they make money when people watch the Instagram.

So that there is a vested interest in staying together, but it is quite scary. It is hard, yeah. It's difficult. It is quite frightening, actually, the whole thing. How long does each book take you to write? 

The publisher normally gives a year. And so it will be within the year. But in reality I have loads of other things going on.

So I, one of the things that I find most difficult is turning things down and being like, No, sorry, I actually have to write. Otherwise, things you run out of time. But this book about Eleanor Castile, this will be in a about six months. But I think if you focus and you don't have any distractions then, then it's fine.

But I obviously do get distracted. I have terrible problems with procrastination, but I'm glad you 

do, 

I feel 

much 

better. No, I honestly do, I really do. And I get distracted, , as soon as I have to write a book, suddenly all those little jobs  get done, and then they're preferable.

Yeah. 

Even a pile of ironing. Yeah, exactly. With and without ceiling. Where are you going to go and do the research? Is that abroad, in France, or is it maybe here, or? , 

  It's a story of Eleanor who died in 1290.

She died just outside Lincoln. Her body was carried from Lincoln to London on this epic, funeral cortege. Not unlike the late Queen, when they had to bring her body from Balmoral down to London. And people would line the streets to see it. It was a bit like that. But afterwards, King Edward, in his grief, built twelve crosses to remember this.

So twelve stone monuments, the last one being Charing Cross. And it's basically this epic route through Stamford, Grantham, St Albans, all these places. And what I have done to research what it was actually like, as I walked the route on the date that they did it. So last December, I walked from Lincoln to London on the route that they did.

So it's basically writing up that epic journey. Amazing. What an 

amazing way to tell a story. I hope so. How long did that take you? 

I did it on the exact dates that they did it and so it took about two weeks. , there's a gap on one day, for example, but one of the days is 28 miles.

Another day's 23 and then 20. It's just like pretty intense. But with company. Sometimes, yeah, I had friends who joined on random days. So it mixed a bit like it felt a bit like a Pilgrim, Canterbury Tales sort of thing. But yeah, it was amazing. I had a blessing from the Dean of Lincoln, and then the Dean of Westminster Abbey was at the other end, it was a really cool journey. It's an interesting insight , through England. Just what's there, and what parts of these histories still survive. Because sometimes the crosses survive, and it's this amazing medieval monument. Sometimes there's nothing there at all, because it was destroyed during the Civil War.

 People have commemorated it in interesting ways,  They've created a mural in Stony Stratford that covers an entire building. Or there's other variations of the cross that have been built since. So it's all about commemorating a great queen and how we have done that over the centuries and how we still commemorate her now.

 She was an amazing figure what a wonderful way to do it. I'd never thought of that. It's just out of left field. Yeah it's quite 

straight, it's quite niche. Although I'm 

fascinated by the medieval churches and the gothic influence which obviously influenced the building of Highclere and our efforts always through what are called the dark ages but to reach God and to build these beautiful spaces which aren't in the least dark, they're about reaching to light.

So I find that fascinating and I suppose I tend to layer that against the pyramids, the ones of the world, which again were reaching up towards the light with their mirrored limestone sides. Yes. It's our imagination seems to always try to take us away from this world. Yes. And hope there's something different and it was very clear at that time, whilst our feet were always actually on the ground, we were walking at walking pace or on a horse and that was it.

Yeah. And yet still. Looking up and still creating, Winchester Cathedral, the stonemasons from there were from here and worked on here and there. Oakes from Highclere helped build Winchester College and New College Oxford with William of Wycombe, one of my heroes. Yeah, of course. Which might be a book I'd love to write actually, because I've got some quite interesting sources for that.

And again, it's being here, it's that sense of place that I love, the feet on the ground, which is what I think the visitors to here or whether from this country or abroad. Yes, definitely. 

I think there's, lots of historians research, by, finding the original sources or doing loads of analysis of historic documents.

But for me, a huge part of it is being there on location and going to these places and just feeling what it's like to be there writing about what it's like to be there. So I suppose that's the lens that I always like to go through. More. But, yeah, it's exciting. It's 

immediate and emotional.

Yeah. I was thinking about it because I was just doing something with Antony van Dyck, who, whose drawing and his composition were not regarded as good as Rubens. But he was interested more in the pigment, the colour, the emotion of the paintings, and I think there's different ways of seeing things, and different ways of interpreting things, and different ways of recording things.

Yeah. Which brings things alive, which is completely fascinating. I'm going to look forward to your next book. Which is not called 18, 12, is it? I don't know what it'll be called yet, actually. Maybe we'll go for numbers. See, I'm glad, because I never know what my books are called until I've written them.

I have these terrible arguments. With myself, as well as everyone here, as well as the publishers and the agents. Yes. 

That's what they're called. Yeah, my first book, Uproar, that changed name quite late on. Which is quite crazy, really, because you think that is such a huge part of it. But, once I thought of the name, it suddenly all clicked into place and I knew that was the right name.

It's a great name. I like it when it's one word, I think that's quite good. But, we'll see with the next one.  It's all kinds of discussions going on behind the scenes nothing's certain ever. 

Alice I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to add about your book or what you're doing in the future, which seems to be massive for the next 18 years.

Yeah. We'll end on an 18, but thank you so much for coming to Hindley today. I've really enjoyed chatting to you and you are inspirational, I think, for me and many others. 

Oh thank you so much for having me. It's a real honour and thrill to be here. Thank you.