The real story behind Burnt Norton: Lady Carnarvon and Caroline Montague on Writing Havens, Burnt Norton’s Past and Stories That Heal

I’m delighted to welcome historical novelist Caroline Montague to the castle, where we talk about how writing offers a refuge from everyday life and how she protects her creative time in her office with her dogs. Caroline shares the remarkable history of Burnt Norton, its links to T.S. Eliot’s “Four Quartets,” and the dramatic tale of Sir William Kite, whose scandal, bankruptcy, and death by fire helped give the house its name, alongside stories of the “white lady” said to haunt the top floor. 

We discuss her path from law and interior design to writing, her planning process shaped by a firm agent, shifting titles and covers, and her current rewrite of a book about a famous royal swap. We also chat about spaniels, horses and the comfort animals bring.

00:49 Writing Routine and Space

01:35 Career Path to Author

02:41 Burnt Norton and TS Eliot

04:42 William Kite House Tragedy

07:02 Ghost Stories White Lady

09:51 House History and Hauntings

11:25 Plotting Process and Ideas

13:16 Deadlines Output and Titles

15:18 Rewriting The Hook

16:08 Jigsaw Writing Method

17:17 Past Healing Present

18:17 Woods And Creativity

18:35 Spaniel Life And Social Media

19:59 Dressage Highs And Loss

21:09 New Horse Gio

22:33 Italy And Spanish Stallions

25:08 Books Animals And Imagination

You can hear more episodes of Lady Carnarvon's Official Podcasts at https://www.ladycarnarvon.com/podcast/

New episodes are published on the first day of every month. 

Transcript

Introduction and Writing Routines

Lady Carnarvon: Welcome to my podcast. I'm delighted to be sitting here at Highclere Castle with Caroline Montague, and I thoroughly enjoy her books. They're historical fiction, I think I might describe them as. Definitely. And like me, she lives in a large house with all the challenges that possesses, but I think writing books for me takes me out of the everyday life and offers me something for myself. And I suspect that's something we might share in common, but let's find out. So Caroline, thank you so much for coming today.

Caroline Montague: Thank you for having me. And yes, that question, it's absolutely true. When I go into one of my stories, I go into another imaginary world and I absolutely love it. And if there's a problem, I dive into my stories and then I'm free of it all for an hour or two, and yeah, then I can come back to it.

Lady Carnarvon: So do you have a specific room that you write in as a writer? How do you settle down, and what's your work program?

Caroline Montague: I have an office and it is my haven, and I take my dogs in there. I see your dog is with you constantly, which I really like. And I go and shut the door. Then I say to everyone, "Don't come in. It's my time." I would like to say I work for three hours every morning, but it's much more because there are so many other things to do. I try to work three hours a day, but it's when I can.

Lady Carnarvon: Wow. I certainly don't achieve three hours a day actually at all with... there are so many other things to do.

Caroline Montague: Of course. Well, you've got more, I'm sure, for you to do, but yeah, no, if I can get three hours done... some days obviously I don't do anything at all.

Career Changes and Moving to Burnt Norton

Lady Carnarvon: How many books have you written?

Caroline Montague: I started quite late because I had lots of careers. I read law, hated law. Got a place to read English at Bristol. And my mummy, who was a barrister, and my elder brother, who was a barrister, both persuaded me to actually not read English at Bristol and read the law, which was a complete disaster. So I actually gave that up after two years. And I got married at 19 and became an interior designer. There was a little bit of modeling before that. Became an interior designer, which I did for years. Then my marriage fell apart, and I met someone else and I moved to Burnt Norton.

I'd written children's stories from four years old, actually. And it was the sort of catalyst, because I lived at a place where one of the most well-known, greatest poems in the English language was written first: The Four Quartets. And somehow, you can't have that huge inspiration without actually following through yourself. So I thought, right, if he can do it, I can do it. At the same time, some of his inspiration definitely rubbed off.

Lady Carnarvon: So Burnt Norton is the first of the poem called The Four Quartets, written by T.S. Eliot.

Caroline Montague: Yeah.

Lady Carnarvon: And something which I think many of us who studied English, as I did as well, studied and loved. Funny enough, it's such a sophisticated and challenging poem. I think you read it when you are 18 or 19. And I found it unbelievably hard, and when I come back to it now, I enjoy it more each time that I reread it. Absolutely.

Caroline Montague: And I think he went to stay with someone called Mary Hale, from what I remember. Was that right? Emily Hale.

Lady Carnarvon: Emily Hale, yes. Absolutely.

Caroline Montague: Funny enough, when I first read it, obviously I read it when I went to live there. I hadn't read it before. I tell you I hadn't read it before and I found it very obscure. And then I thought, I'm going to learn it. I learned the whole of the first part.

Lady Carnarvon: Wow.

Caroline Montague: And then I started to understand it, and you see the children hidden in the shrubbery, and all his imagery somehow came to life, and I was absolutely captivated. But no, he came in 1934 because he'd been staying with Emily Hale and her family in Chipping Campden. And she had obviously told him there was this wonderful derelict house, very derelict near Campden, and did they want to walk to it? So they trespassed, basically. They came through the woods, which was public right of way. And then they decided, "Okay, let's go down this way." And it was private, but they went on.

And then they came... we're absolutely convinced this is what happened. Then we have a wall with a little white gate, which is so enticing, and inside are these dry stone pools, dry concrete, brown-edged, which is in the poem of course. And he saw them. And he obviously said, "Let's go in. There's no one here." And so he came inside and wrote the first of the Four Quartets about Burnt Norton. Yeah, it's extraordinary, and it is the pool garden, which we call it. It is extraordinary. And so it certainly inspired me.

Lady Carnarvon: When did you and your husband come to live there then? Did you buy that or was that inherited?

Caroline Montague: My husband's family bought it from the bankrupt estate of Sir William Keyt, who in turn had bought it from the Saye and Sele family. But William Keyt was actually the subject of my first novel, and he had lived there with his family and his wife and children very happily. Until he started having an affair with his wife's lady's maid, which sounds a bit clichéd, but this is what happened. So this is what I wrote about. And he then tried to murder the butler. The wife, Lady Keyt, left him and she went back to the other house he lived at. He lived at Burnt Norton with the lady's maid, Molly Johnson, and he then decided to build this massive house on the lawn, which is what he did. He bankrupted himself, his entire family, embezzled their money, and burnt the house and himself inside to the ground one night. Good God. In 1734. And my husband's family bought it off the bankrupt estate in 1741, I think it was. And they've lived there ever since.

Lady Carnarvon: Was that why it was called Burnt Norton?

Caroline Montague: Over Norton became Burnt Norton, purely and simply because it had burnt to the ground.

Lady Carnarvon: Goodness me. So the new house that he'd built, which made him bankrupt, was the one that burnt to the ground that one year?

Caroline Montague: That's the one.

Lady Carnarvon: So you're in the original house?

Caroline Montague: We are in the original house. He built a massive Georgian house on the lawn, and it was utterly beautiful. But within two years, he'd burnt himself to death in it. There's a lot of history there and funny enough, T.S. Eliot's poem, hidden in the shrubbery, and there are so much echoes of the past in that poem.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes.

Caroline Montague: And I reckon he must have known William Keyt's story when he went there. 'Cause there were no children when he went there. It was empty. So I think echoes of William Keyt and his family and everything run through that poem for me.

Lady Carnarvon: But all T.S. Eliot's poems echo the past, don't they?

Caroline Montague: Yes, they certainly do.

Lady Carnarvon: They are extraordinary poems. Luckily at school I had the most amazing teacher who adored T.S. Eliot and J. Alfred Prufrock and some of those poems as well. So I had such an amazing English background at school.

Caroline Montague: Isn't that incredible?

Lady Carnarvon: Which has then been so fortunate in later years and I've absolutely gone back there again. It is extraordinary. Permanent, I think. How amazing to be living there. But my God, there must be some ghosts, aren't there?

The Ghosts of Burnt Norton & Highclere

Caroline Montague: Oh, completely. In the forties, Tudor Hall moved the school to Burnt Norton to our house. And then after that it was rented out. Then it was rented to a school for disadvantaged boys, and every so often they come and they say, "We had such a wonderful time here. Can I please go around the garden?" And I take them around the garden and, of course, I want to get something in return. I want to get something back: "What were your years like here?" So many of them said, the happiest in their life.

But also I say, "Okay, let's get to the real thing. What about ghosts?" And they do tell me about ghosts. It's brilliant because I have had one experience of a ghost at Burnt Norton, and it's exactly what they said, which sort of affirmed it. One particular man pointed to a window on the top floor and said, "That is where we all drew lots not to be in that room." So I said, "Why is that?" And I've never ever told my daughter this, let me tell you, because I hope she doesn't listen to this because she doesn't like ghosts or would be frightened. "Because that's where the white lady walks," he said. So I took it with a pinch of salt.

And about six months later I had a girlfriend stay because my husband Conroy was in London, and I needed babysitting. I always called her practical Patty 'cause she was a really practical, no-nonsense girl. And at about 12 o'clock she came rushing into my room. She was in the room opposite, which was the one below he pointed to. Yeah, one below the one he pointed to. She says, "There's someone walking across the room above!" And I said, "Gina, come on. This is fine. I'm sure you are wrong."

Anyway, I went into her room and there it was. Thump across the floor, definite sound of a footfall. And I rang Conroy and I said, "Could there be someone in the house?" And he said, "Well, you better go and check." Well, of course...

Lady Carnarvon: Thanks a lot.

Caroline Montague: Thanks a lot. But I did. No one in the house. All the doors were locked. I think the dogs were downstairs at the time. No barking. Anyway, I said, "Oh, okay, pipes. No pipes." The following day, I took the dogs up, they slept in my bed. I think Gina actually slept on the other side of the bed. It was quite funny. And nothing the following day, absolute nothing. It had been a footfall and that is the room where the white lady walks. And of course this was directly below it, so she was walking. One year, some wonderful old ladies came back from Tudor Hall who'd been at Tudor Hall during the war, and they absolutely swore by the fact that there was a ghost. The white lady was up there. So, you know. I think she is.

Lady Carnarvon: When was the house, the one you are occupying now, actually built? How old is it?

Caroline Montague: It was built in the 17th century, but the cellars go back to the 1300s. And then as with every house I'm sure here, they're built over the centuries.

Lady Carnarvon: So do you know who the white lady is?

Caroline Montague: No. My husband has lots of ideas about she was an old retainer or something, you know. Mm-hmm. But I don't know. I've had lots of pranks with the kids over the white lady, let me tell you.

Lady Carnarvon: The team here have played the odd prank on me where I write there's a ghost outside sometimes. But he then did come back and I blamed them completely for that.

Caroline Montague: For calling him back.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes. Yes. I said to them, "If he's annoyed because you are pretending to be a ghost and scare me, he might well come back because he's really annoyed with you."

Caroline Montague: I'm sure. I agree internally.

Lady Carnarvon: And then that night, as I... he always comes about 5, 5:30. He walks down and then he stopped outside the room, which he doesn't normally do. And my dogs were barking, going bonkers.

Caroline Montague: That is funny, isn't it? It's quite... oh, I don't know. I think my white lady isn't going to do any harm, but it's still a bit scary when you hear her thumping across your ceiling.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes. You don't really want to go up there.

Caroline Montague: No, you don't.

Lady Carnarvon: So it's funny, isn't it? We're all the same. I actually had the house blessed to try to remove one particular ghost, which is always a good thing to do.

Caroline Montague: Well, funnily enough, we did the same, but not for that reason. We did have the house blessed because someone needed to leave and they didn't want to leave. And it was very interesting and as we did it, a photograph frame of that person fell over.

Lady Carnarvon: How interesting.

Caroline Montague: So things do happen.

Books, Publishing & Titles

Lady Carnarvon: Well, we don't know everything. And your books explore, I suppose, both large houses and things that happen, don't they? And that's when you start to write a book, like Pieces of Us, which I've just read, and thank you very much, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yes. Do you know where you are going at the start? How do you write Caroline? Do you have the arc of the story? Do you know what's going to happen to the couple? And that couple obviously had a very challenging event in their life they were trying to resolve.

Caroline Montague: I do usually. Well, actually my agent is very fierce with me because I often... I would probably just let the story go and follow it. But she always makes me write a very detailed synopsis. I usually do know where the story's going, but of course it always changes. I mean, in the Pieces of Us, I was gonna have someone murdered and then I thought, "No, it's not that kind of book, you know?" So yeah, I did have a pretty good idea, but of course it evolves because it was set in the potteries. And once I became involved in the potteries, it takes you on all these different directions and it's just incredible. So I sort of knew, and I usually know sort of. But it evolves as yours do, obviously.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes. Although mine tend to be more... you are more nonfiction too. I've been writing about nonfiction, although I am writing one more nonfiction. I want to write a fictional book too. Do you? So I'm just sort of feeling my way through for the different characters in my head. Yeah. But I've got two specific ideas, but they're different ones and I want to write them both. And I can't decide what order to start in.

Caroline Montague: Well, and whatever you start, you want to do the other one.

Lady Carnarvon: So it's always hopeless.

Caroline Montague: Well, funny enough, I'm writing two books at once actually at the moment.

Lady Carnarvon: Oh, are you?

Caroline Montague: I started to write one, which I was absolutely loving, and then my agent said, "I want you to write the other one first because the other one's got more of a hook." Right. Um, so...

Lady Carnarvon: And how long does each book take you to write?

Caroline Montague: Well, it depends. Sometimes they try to make me do it in a year, from start to finish with all your edits, which I find a challenge. A challenge. I can do it in nine months, but then I'm really pushed. Some publishers make you turn out literally... some people I know are doing two a year and I couldn't do that. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've got a life. I think you'd be writing all day long if you did that.

Lady Carnarvon: Mm-hmm. Every 18 months. How many books have you written now?

Caroline Montague: I've got, I think about seven. Wow. But then I think it's eight if you count The Unfortunate Maria Stella, which is my current one, which is the title... will not stay the same.

Lady Carnarvon: I like the idea with your latest book, Caroline, that your title changed. 'Cause my titles change the whole time. They're the biggest argument, as are the covers of the book.

Caroline Montague: And the covers nightmare. Oh my God. The last one. The Pieces of Us actually is a beautiful title, I think, but wasn't mine at all. And my editor said, "How do you think about The Pieces of Us?" And I said, "Oh my God." Because everyone, with The Paris Secret, that was not my title. I struggled with that so much. But the publishers wanted it, so...

Lady Carnarvon: Well, the word "secret" in the title is very good.

Caroline Montague: Yeah. But I don't like it. Do you? So I was very happy with The Pieces of Us, and I was very happy with the cover. It's the first one where I didn't have a lady looking into the distance with... I know, with a big house in the background. So I didn't want that. And this is a beautiful cover, I think. I dunno if you liked it, but it's...

Lady Carnarvon: Yes. No, I did very much. It's very different. I thought it's the first one that had a really pretty cover.

Caroline Montague: But yeah, The Unfortunate Maria Stella will actually definitely change the title. Actually, not only will the publishers change it, but I would change it because it's now about the main characters of two people rather than one. Because I realised that it didn't remotely match its USP [Unique Selling Point]. And actually my daughter-in-law pointed this out. She said, "Caroline, what was your USP?" And I said, "Well, it was an extraordinary story. The jailer's son was swapped with the Duke of Orleans, and he ultimately became the King of France." And she said, "Well, what story did you write?" And I said, "Well, I wrote about the girl."

So I have, I am completely rewriting that book. I thought I'd finished, it was about to go out. I've stopped it going out. You know, the man in the iron mask, it's about...

Lady Carnarvon: Yes, a swap.

Caroline Montague: This has got an amazing hook, but it's only got an amazing hook if I write about both the characters.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes.

Caroline Montague: And so I'd written the girl's story, which was amazing 'cause it's true. And it's all actually linked to a painting at home. But it was only half the story. So now I literally, as I say, I'm back at my desk rewriting that and well, just adding to it. Not really rewriting I'm doing. Do you ever do when you have one chapter of one person, one chapter, or another person?

Lady Carnarvon: I do. I write rather like a jigsaw puzzle, and I don't always know the arc of what I'm writing... which is exactly. So I sometimes have the outside of it. And then I find I work on different elements of it, flowers or a house. So that's how I work through it. And sometimes with The Earl and the Pharaoh, which is a little bit of historical fiction, but very based on facts and diaries actually...

Caroline Montague: Wonderful.

Lady Carnarvon: Yeah, I started with a chapter which I knew I wanted to write when the fifth Earl... when the fifth Earl's mother died. And I just thought that was such a key time in his life.

Caroline Montague: Mm-hmm.

Lady Carnarvon: That's where I wanted to begin with everybody, draw them in. So that was very clear. And then after that it was a huge patchwork, which I only discovered. I ended up obviously with Tutankhamun, but in between was my patchwork jigsaw puzzle of doing bit of sky, bit of this, bit of that, because actually they fed into each other.

Caroline Montague: Of course. I like that. It's quite interesting. I've had three dual stories, where you have one past, one present, one past. Yes. And I think it's quite interesting. It keeps people on their toes. Certainly in The Pieces of Us, of course you have the... actually the past heals the tragedy of the present because obviously, Marina loses a child. She's Italian and she's a human rights lawyer, and she comes to England and is lost in this great... because her husband has Thorncliff Hall, she learns this story. She gets the grain of a story at the house actually when she buys a coffee pot in London. And she realises that it's actually made in the family pottery, and it brings up a whole story. But by finding this story, her tragedy in the present is healed by the past. And I love that, don't you? When the past can heal the present.

Lady Carnarvon: Well, it's probably very Burnt Norton, isn't it? Where the past, the present, the future...

Caroline Montague: Yeah, exactly. Coming together.

Lady Carnarvon: So it's good old T.S. Eliot, who's...

Caroline Montague: I told you they're all at once. Yes. And live now, by the way.

Lady Carnarvon: Yeah, exactly. So it is a great poem 'cause it is about living now, standing and stopping and staring.

Caroline Montague: It is. And that poem's about the outside of the shrubbery, and I think going outside is such an important part of life and how characters evolve and unfold. Exactly, well, so many of my characters evolve in the woods. I'm sure yours do too, when you're walking or riding or whatever.

Lady Carnarvon: Yes. You know, that's when I have time to think.

Spaniels and Horses in the Country

Lady Carnarvon: So you also love Spaniels, I've gathered Caroline.

Caroline Montague: I'm potty about my Spaniels. Yeah. They rule the roost and they are the Insta Queens. Not me at all. You know, it's Suki and Poppy.

Lady Carnarvon: So what Spaniels do you have? Suki and Poppy?

Caroline Montague: Without Suki and Poppy, I would have no followers.

Lady Carnarvon: It's funny the world, social media, isn't it?

Caroline Montague: Yeah. It's extraordinary.

Lady Carnarvon: So do you have any other dogs? It's just the two spaniels?

Caroline Montague: No, now it's just the two spaniels. My last... I had three spaniels before. I always used to have golden retrievers, but my wonderful husband said they were far too hairy and they were spreading golden hair everywhere.

Lady Carnarvon: They are quite hairy.

Caroline Montague: They are quite hairy. But actually I have got one very hairy spaniel and so she's just as spreading, I think.

Lady Carnarvon: God, I know they are. I've got three spaniels and they are just the joy of my life actually. So they're so bright.

Caroline Montague: They are very bright, so bright and oh, I just love them.

Lady Carnarvon: Now my kids have gone left home. They are very huggable and the kids didn't want me to hug them anyway recently. I know. So your spaniels are very important actually for emotional wellbeing.

Caroline Montague: Oh, hugely huge. You know that terrible thing when your kids suddenly decide to go off to London and get married, get boyfriends, whatever, you know... and then you've got a spaniel. They're actually probably easier, funnily enough, than...

Lady Carnarvon: They probably are. That's true. They don't answer back us either. And do you also have horses as well in the country?

Caroline Montague: Well, I have two left in the field. I used to have dressage horses, and I rode quite a high standard. I mean, I never won. I was always bottom. Because I was competing at Prix St. Georges, where you've got all the big boys and advanced medium where you've got the big boys competing against you, Carl Hester and lots of very, very good riders. And of course I was always bottom, which actually was slightly soul destroying, but I did love it. And then my little beautiful dressage horse was killed on the cattle grid. Yeah, obviously terrible. And it broke my heart and I haven't gotten a horse since.

Lady Carnarvon: What? She tried to go across a cattle grid?

Caroline Montague: I was in Italy and I will never actually know exactly what happened, 'cause no one did. He got outta the field and he got onto the cattle grid. I rode past the cattle grid every day, so I don't know. I don't know whether he was terrified by a gunshot or something happened. And I haven't ridden since. And that was, must be nine years ago. Wow. So, you know, that was the sadness. But I mean, I love watching other people and funnily enough, I don't wanna fall off anymore. So, you know, they're big horses. My dressage horses were all 16.2, 17 hands.

Lady Carnarvon: Well, I've just got a new horse who's 16.2.

Caroline Montague: Really lovely. Is he a good boy?

Lady Carnarvon: Well, I dunno yet. He's only three. I'll find out. He's a Spanish Andalusian.

Caroline Montague: Oh my God. I love them.

Lady Carnarvon: He's got a nice head and I think he's mentally stable.

Caroline Montague: That's what you want.

Lady Carnarvon: And I think that's what I want. And he has been broken in, in Seville in Spain.

Caroline Montague: Oh, amazing.

Lady Carnarvon: I'm just walking him by hand, which I'll do tomorrow morning.

Caroline Montague: Oh, how divine.

Lady Carnarvon: And I sat on him and bought a saddle yesterday. So I'm very happy with my saddle, so I'm just trying to find someone to go around the estate with, 'cause it's a beautiful way to see this amazing estate and parkland. So I'm trying not again to fall off. I don't want to do that.

Caroline Montague: No, you don't.

Lady Carnarvon: But it is time out. I've also got one of those, I've just bought one of those air jackets.

Caroline Montague: Oh, have you? Good idea. Good idea.

Lady Carnarvon: So it doesn't sort everything, but maybe.

Caroline Montague: No, but it does.

Lady Carnarvon: It does, it is a sensible way to go. I think. It absolutely is. And I'm just going to go very, very carefully.

Caroline Montague: Very carefully. Yeah. And well, you'll know already if he's got a sensible brain, I'm sure.

Lady Carnarvon: I've been promised he has. 'Cause it was a friend of mine who found him. Sat on him and felt he was a bigger version of my Arabs.

Caroline Montague: Oh, but gorgeous. Actually. Probably a little bit more stable than them. They probably more stable than Arabs, Arabs are quite flighty, aren't they?

Lady Carnarvon: They are. They're gorgeous. We used to have quite exciting rides, but I think he felt quite good actually. So I feel...

Caroline Montague: And what color?

Lady Carnarvon: Grey. Dapple grey.

Caroline Montague: Oh, divine. Funny enough, the only time I've been really tempted is... have a house in Italy, hence my Italian affair, which I set in my house in Italy. Yes. And opposite is a wonderful sort of hotel called Reschio.

Lady Carnarvon: I know. Reschio. That's where my friends who found my horse are.

Caroline Montague: No. Yeah.

Lady Carnarvon: Those are my oldest friends. Ponti and Nencia Bolza. Don't... Ponti Bolza very kindly through his family... my Spanish horse.

Caroline Montague: Well, let me tell you, it was his horse he said... asked me if I wanted to ride it. Ponti literally had this beautiful white stallion in the stable, and I went to look at it and I just fell in love with it. He's lovely. So that's where I go and stay.

Lady Carnarvon: That is crazy.

Caroline Montague: And they come over with me. Well, my house is opposite.

Lady Carnarvon: How hysterical.

Caroline Montague: Right. Well, that's where I go in Italy. So next time I'm over there... and they're coming to stay with me in June.

Lady Carnarvon: That is absurd. So, yes. So he is the man. I wanted to find an Andalusian who I could grow old with and wander around with without having too many accidents. And he buys his horses from his great friend Ignacio in Spain. And I thought I would have one, because if I don't do it now, I probably won't. And I thought I would like extraordinary, have another horse. And they found me one, which they've both promised has got a very kind head.

Caroline Montague: Do you know, that's so extraordinary because this is the one time I was tempted since Skippy died, with his beautiful stallion because he looked so calm. And it's never... I mean, he's in his eighties for heaven's sake. And so therefore, I thought he said, "That's so kind, Caroline. It's so calm." And I thought, "Well, I really want to." And then I thought, "Mm, maybe not." You know.

Lady Carnarvon: They are kind, they are calm, and I have ridden out with him. So this one is slightly bigger than I thought, but I think the attitude matters more than anything else.

Caroline Montague: Of course it does.

Lady Carnarvon: So that's where I'm going. I have to show you a pic. He's called Brujo. Which means kind of a magician.

Caroline Montague: How wonderful. Well, you need to read Shadows Over the Spanish Sun because that I have done it all around my dressage knowledge. It's set in the Spanish Civil War, but this, Leonardo is my hero and he trained horses in the Spanish way. It was in Seville.

Lady Carnarvon: Well, it's trying to get the horses to work with you and I, which I think is magical. And Ponti and his Antonella have written a book about Speak Equus, which is about how to get a horse to go with you. And that's what I'm interested in doing. So we both go through life in the journey together and face the challenges together. And I think that's a lovely journey. I think books, reading, horses, animals, dogs, they're all part of the best way of sharing lives.

Caroline Montague: Oh, I agree.

Lady Carnarvon: And every month, you know, I love my book club here and chatting to people who write books because that's where our imagination leads us and takes us into the worlds that you create. It takes us out of our daily life. And you can live vicariously and it's immensely relaxing 'cause you let your brain go. So...

Caroline Montague: I think, oh, I agree. I mean, animals are everything. I couldn't live without them.

Lady Carnarvon: Well, animals, reading and writing in books. Yes. So I think it's...

Caroline Montague: That's it. Desert Island, it's a library, a garden.

Lady Carnarvon: Do we take them all to the desert island, do you think?

Caroline Montague: Definitely.

The Desert Island Dance

Lady Carnarvon: But Caroline, every summer, we have a summer dance or something, a sort of special occasion to celebrate still being here, I think is the main thing for all of us. And if you could ask anyone you wanted from past or present, from, you know, Prince Albert to T.S. Eliot, to come with you to the summer dance, apart from your husband, who I'm sure would be your first choice, who do you think you might have with you?

Caroline Montague: Shall I tell you? I know exactly. If anyone had listened to Desert Island Discs not so long ago, about 18 months ago, they would've heard Carl Hester, who is one of my very best... I've been to a dance with him as his partner because he's gay and he makes me laugh, and he's one of my oldest friends and I actually adore him. And he makes me laugh. So yes, I would definitely... he's also very handsome. Um, and he's my gay best friend and I love him to bits. So yes, he'd be my choice.

Lady Carnarvon: Excellent. Well, I would look forward to seeing you with Carl Hester and watching you both dance. Thank you so much, Caroline, for joining me today.

Caroline Montague: Thank you. Wonderful.